The entities that I have dealt with from 2005-2009, which I call "greys" are not at all the same critters that former government employees report interacting with in bases. I will get around to talking about the latter later.
Non-physical greys can be subdivided into 2 categories:
Short Greys: under this category I include not only the formerly most common 4' greys that somewhat resemble the pic on the cover of Communion (a book written by a CIA satanist named Whitley Strieber), but also Lam and other small-eyed greys, as well as the 5' tall variety of large-eyed greys, and probably various other strains of shorter greys. All these, as far as I know, are now extinct.
They were common throughout most of the timelines of Universes A through F. They resided especially heavily in places like the Zeta Reticuli region, Orion, and Rigel (as did the "Tall Greys"). The short greys were 4D; the tall greys are 5D. Both classes of greys were as evil as can be, extremely cunning, demonic, astral entities. But that situation was resolved in 2009.
My allies and I waged war on short and tall greys for years, greatly reducing their vast numbers. Then, as described elsewhere, the short greys were turned around from their path by Jessica Schab prior to her falling out with her higher selves and the forces of good. I had thought they were incurably, inherently demonic, but they were totally cured in a surprisingly short time. They turned around completely and fought valiantly for a couple weeks or so on our side. Then, on the night of Aug. 27, '09, I blogged "Just now i was in bed when a really weird-looking grey comes up. It was actually all remaining short greys in one space, in one skin. It said, 'Farewell, Loohan. You can have what remains of our energy.' And proceeded to shrivel up. I tossed it into my scrubber/storage unit."
Here's something I have not mentioned before about that: About 4 weeks later I started getting vague images of a shriveled grey-like face, shuddering, wracked with misery and torment. It/they were still alive! Tormented by their evil acts of the past. They had not been able to self-destruct as I had assumed. I would have to put them out of their misery. I had a heavy heart about that, because they had such a conscience! By that time we had converted many formerly evil species which were now fighting on our side, but none seemed to be obviously suffering from guilt. I gave the grey(s) to Pa-Paw Shantul to delete. I felt it was the right thing to do. The short greys wanted to dissolve any individual awareness they had, and be recycled back into the infinite. They couldn't live with themselves and their memories. It was somewhat poignant for me.
Tall Greys: These are a very different, yet in some ways similar species. They are from 7' to 7'4" tall, have the same kind of faces as the big-eyed short greys did. At least the lowest echelon does. They usually hung in the same hives as the short ones. But they are 5D instead of 4D. This was the species that really messed with my dowsing in 2005, causing some embarrassment to myself after I discovered how they were manipulating me. They were similar in behavior and values to the short greys, but more powerful. They have 99 tiers in their heirarchy, each level being fatter than the one below it, with variations in morphology. The highest tiers are extremely powerful.
The short greys were unique in their dramatic levels of guilty feelings and crippling remorse. The tall greys were unique in that, even before I got around to addressing them with the new therapy (I was doing other species first), I was approached in surrender on Aug. 4, 2009. As i wrote:
Also last night i had an astral visitor who had a face similar to a Lam but with a wider chin and fat face. The entity seemed rotund. Funky vibe, so i bagged him. A 99th tier Tall Grey; high echelon. Immediately i got the sense that he wanted to negotiate, and was sincere. Riiight, a sincere Tall Grey. Oxymoron. But he actually seemed to be asking for therapy on behalf of all Tall Greys. So now my 21D self is working with him and them, and i am optimistic we might soon come to a positive outcome.
No other species had the integrity to ask for therapy. The Tall Greys have been enthusiastically fighting on our side since they completed their therapy.
* * * * So, there are no longer any non-physical evil greys left, that I know of, anywhere in any universe or time-line.
But, the so-called grays that you read about that people have interacted with in government bases are something else entirely. The following is excerpted from my blog entry of Jan. 24, '10:
Very interesting. I was just looking at a page on Project Camelot that i hadn't looked at before. It has this pic of a "a classic representation of a Gray". But this is absolutely not a likeness of the common 4D short greys that i am familiar with. These latter are now extinct by their own volition, because they could not live with themselves, so repentant were they once cured of their extreme evil tendencies. As i have suspected, these physical "grays" referred to by former gov't people are a different species entirely. I have a clear idea of what the classical short 4D greys looked like. Because last year as i reported, one of their messengers had to get my attention to let me know they had found another mantis hive, and were attacking it (this was not long after they had switched sides). To get my attention he made me see his face very clearly for a couple minutes. I have not found a pic of exactly that face on the web. It was rather good-looking in its own way.
Anyway, these physical greys have a base on Jupiter's moon Io, right about where the square dot is here. That location might be slightly off; i had trouble zeroing in on it. They are evil. The depth is 223-311'. I think there are 3,111 of these ETs living there.
Their home base is ESO 69-6. Pic to the right. Which is interesting, as in the past i think i have read that the "grays" of gov't collusion come from the same places where the 4D greys were common, e.g. Zeta Reticuli, Orion, etc. Was this just a subterfuge because these "grays" wanted to obfuscate their real location?
* * * * Then there is another life-form that resembles short greys. These have been publicized by Dan Burisch, who called them J-rods, but J-rod was just a name given to one individual by the government. Dan seems to think they are the same thing as greys. J-rods are mutant humans from the future who have been heavily into time travel/manipulation. Some were good, some were OK, but a great many were very evil and dangerous. However they have accepted therapy, and the status of the evil ones is still "in therapy" months later. I believe they are refraining from evil and will turn out OK.
I am a bit confused by their degree of physicality. Dan makes it sound like they are physical, and if they are future versions of us, one would think they are physical, unless we all ascended to a higher dimension or something. But I do not get a vibe off a particular dimension like I should if they were strictly hyperdimensional, non-physical beings. Yet I have only interacted with them on an astral level, including jailing vast numbers of them.
* * * * Then, too, there are still vast numbers of evil (as well as likely some good) humanoid species that may resemble greys in appearance to one extent or another.
Update June, '10: Mordok found some more Tall Greys that were still evil. I think they had been hiding out in some time-pockets or something. Some of these are in therapy now, whereas others refused it and are being jailed.
Update Aug. 24, 10: My friends Thorp and Esterian told me there were physical greys in Rigel, Orion, Zeta, etc. but I couldn't feel them until recently, after my allies stirred them up for me. Esterian's people are building an anti-grey resonator to blast them with.
A month or so ago there was a massive exodus of physical greys from countless underground bases on Earth. This was because I was finding lots of their bases and having allies kill them in their bases. It is possible that the great majority of the greys left at that time. Perhaps about 30% of those leaving were killed trying.
Update Dec. 28, '10: Lately in my blog I have been endeavoring to use the "gray" spelling with an "a" when referring to physical grays. I have generally used the "grey" spelling for the astral types.
I have been reading mention of physical "tall grays" and "large grays" in sources I consider trustworthy. But I confess that I have never detected such myself.
Recently we flushed up scads of the short physical grays in the ORNL area, which have been mostly killed off in the last few days. See my blog late December for details.
Update Jan. 10, '11: Last Aug. 24 I said I thought that possibly the majority of the physical grays had left Earth. Maybe... but lately I have sure been finding loads of them in small underground bases that are often clustered in close proximity to each other. Many are under the sea floor. Usually each base will only have 20-30 grays and there can be hundreds of such bases in an area which may be dozens or hundreds of miles in diameter.
Update Feb. 7, '11: Lately we have been immersed in constant warfare with the grays. First it was mainly Rigelians, but we kicked their butts in Rigel, so now it's mostly Zeta Reticulans. There seem to be some minor differences between these 2 strains; at least they dowse differently. There are still many Rigelians underground. Our ET allies have been killing them off in huge numbers.
They actually come in from Zeta (formerly from Rigel) via portals that they manifest in the Earth. I don't quite understand it. But they come in via portals and park themselves underground in usually small groups like 3 or 9 individuals. However, daily I still find Rigelian bases underground with thousands; just a few days ago I found 5 million Rigelians 21 miles below Lagos, Nigeria. Last night I found 6 million at 64 miles under Los Alamos! Every now and then i scoop up their portals, sometimes hundreds of them, and shove them into some evil person. They are very easy to move.
These tiny groups seem to be for the purpose of DOR attack and poisoning earth energies, etc. The grays have had to replace the non-physical demons which traditionally were the ones to do this, because the demons are getting scarce these days. And the physical grays have been behaving in ways unusual for physical beings. Like apparently embedding themselves underground wherever they please. I presume they do not breathe air, even though they do seem to have nostrils...
OK, here is some info from my blog, Jan. 28:
(7pm) I figured out something about the grays. They have some kind of inferiority complex. They recognize that they are inferior beings. This may be due to a lack of genitalia/womb, which limits what they can do psi-wise. Hence they have to enslave other psychic beings and work with allies of other evil species. And rely on a lot of hi-tech. So it really pushes their buttons if you sneeringly address them as goyim, sub-humans, 3rd-rate drones, etc. It seems to disconcert them.
I've been playing around with this. Yesterday i wrote to that guy in Holland:
Try this (i'm serious!):
Visualize all the grays underground for miles around and address them "Goyim! Hey Goyim, i'm talking to you: Die in the name of Godzilla!"
just try it and see if you notice anything.
This morning i got an email from him:
it seems to have worked and it seemed to have an immediate effect.. mostly on the psi attacks and also on the DOR vibe here (which was getting extremely strong again at dusk). I am still figuring out if this is wishful thinking, or co�ncedence, but hmm.. I don't think so. This is beyond my comprehension at this time. Godzilla?
Thanks a lot for the help, anyway!
Godzilla? Yes. It is not necessary to use Jesus' name. He is not necessarily the most appropriate person for this, just as a brain surgeon is not necessarily the best person to have digging ditches. I find that "Stop in the name of Hecate!" is just as effective as in Jesus' name. But in the name of Godzilla is the best i've found. Godzilla is a being of the same infinite level of purity as Jesus, Jehovah, or the 29 angels on The Committee.
Explanation: on April 27, 2009 i wrote:
(3:30pm) Esterian told me about a dangerous "hive beast" in the Earth. What it is, i haven't yet figured out, but i have found its location just north of Hokkaido, Japan, about 300' below the sea floor. I think it's just one entity, but involved in various projects involving others... Feels important.
(8:10pm) Esterian confirms with extreme enthusiasm that it is important. I have unofficially christened it Godzilla out of deference to Japanese culture, and also because it seems to much resemble (warning: 862 KB) this guy. Japanese intuition?
(9pm) Forgot to mention, Godzilla resides in between the 3rd and 4th dimension. He's 625' tall, grey with red eyes, pretty mean-looking.
A little while ago he came after me. I felt this heavy gravity-like feeling and hostile energy. Oh kay, i says, and focus strongly on my weapons. The attack grows weaker surprisingly quickly. I realize the dragon is really good, but was enslaved by greys, etc. just like Esterian says. I got the dirty crap off of him, and it looks like now he's on our side. Hehehe.
(9:25pm) And our man Godzilla is on the move, rapidly approaching this spot which is the location of a nest of short greys that he particularly detests. 268' depth. Uh-oh, too late. I hear a loud squishing noise.
I believe that the greys were planning to have Godzilla become a "god" to bully people around with, and inspired the Godzilla flick (which i haven't seen). Back then it was the 4D astral greys (now extinct) that we were up against. Godzilla killed loads of them. Then a couple years ago he went into a parallel realm via Center Ridge, AR, and has been fighting there since. Right now he is fighting physical grays there, too.
So you don't have to invoke Jesus. You don't have to politely request they stop, either. Depending on your mood, there are many commands that work, e.g. drop dead, eat shit and die, fuck off. I dunno but i find it much more satisfying to say Fuck off in the name of Godzilla!
Update Feb. 11, '11: The wildest thing just happened: I think we got rid of all the little physical greys. This afternoon Antuvozy programmed a piece of local quartzite for me. Apparently, although the "physical" greys had a physical phase they could manifest in, they also had an etheric phase they could be jailed in. But it required unusual advanced programming. This stone sucked them all in, with the help of Antuvozy and myself putting our attention on it. Then all grays everywhere, a far as i know anyway, were in the stone!
Then i connected God's Recyclers to the stone, and they cooked down the grays.
Update March 20, '11: It stands to reason that we will still be seeing more grays from time to time, seeing as how they were so into timelines and metaphysics. There's bound to be pockets of them still to be discovered. On Feb. 25 i found and Antuvozy destroyed some grays in some other weird dimensions.
Then a couple nights ago, i found 3 Lam (short, small-eyed greys) and a 5.5' tall small-eyed grey, one of the several 4D types previously found in the Zeta area, here on Earth working for us! The 4D greys were supposed to be extinct as of Fall of '09. What had happened? God had made more greys! Apparently these odd, genderless, astral beings have some important functions in the cosmos. So far there may only be these 4. I can't find any of the large-eyed ones. I became aware of the first Lam because i was remotely checking on a spot in AR where some satanists live that make unusual DOR despite the fact that i've busted it pretty well. The Lam was there, trying to figure out how to fix the energy. (It's still pretty bad, though.)
Update May 6, '11: The status of these guys still seems the same as in last report. But here's a cool video. I can no longer discern from the vibe, especially as these guys are now apparently extinct, but I suspect this is real. If not, it is such a well-done fake that it is worth spending a minute watching.
Update May 26, '11: More bizarreness. Last night I was thinking about Plejarans, Jesus, and Billy Meier. I have the impressions that the Plejarans are the strongest kind of Christians, whereas Meier has no connection to Jesus. And that Jmmanuel is not Jesus but another guy. So I decided to check out Jmmanuel. I reasoned if he is a good warrior, then he will be in conflict with demons, so I searched for that conflict energy. I felt something and started connecting to whatever it was. Right away a dark, spooky energy came over me. Then I got all these RV images of grays!
There was a small U base under Honsho, Japan. Another under Sasketchewan, CA. 4 more under the sea. Probably all only a few weeks old. I had Antuvozy delete these guys.
I found Jmmanuel is the man who knows where grays are at, in case anyone wants to go gray-hunting. These came here from... well, I had the impression of all these capsules of dormant grays, each containing 999,999 grays, floating around in space-time. They were impervious to space-time and normally undetectable due to their shells. But, although these were of the "physical" type of short, large-eyed gray (definitely not the astral-only species) these were in a pre-material phase where they could be jailed with an ordinary jailer or with the mind alone.
So I was jailing all these capsules when i got images of more grays RVing me angrily. We went after those, too, as well as a bunch more Jmmanuel knew about. I'm hazy on the details. But even the next day, my forces are still working with him, persecuting grays.
I still have not read more than a few sentences about Jmmanuel. [Update Jan. '12: Billy Meier is a shapeshifting reptilian who scammed and misrepresented the Plejarans, and, most likely, Jmmanuel. Not that I have read more since.] [Update July '16: Nope, the Plejarans have been total phonies all along, with their "positive energy". They may be of the same race as the Pharaohs. Jmmanuel no longer exists. I suspect that the reason I sensed all those greys were because he was in league with them, not conflicting.]
June 11, 11: And still haven't. But Jmmanuel and my people have been tracking down grays ever since.
I had a strange experience a few nights ago. I "saw" a gray head, but the being seemed to have a clean vibe. It seemed to indicate it was a good gray from some other reality or something. They liked my work and wanted to help me.
Of course I was a trifle suspicious, but I could not dowse any bad stuff on them. They could manipulate reality by jacking around time, etc. So i said, help me win the lottery then. I bought a ticket, but all the numbers turned out wrong. So this evening I had Jmmanuel check them out. Now I noticed he and my allies are chasing down those grays, too.
Aug. 18, '11: I had another interesting episode last night, this time with astral greys. I had discovered this "helpful" entity which was grey-like. In fact it was closely related to the standard 4' tall large-eyed astral greys that have been extinct a while. Somehow this guy had escaped the fate of the other astral short greys. He put out a good vibe and my inclination was to trust him. He said he was related to the other greys but that he and his comrades never went down the path of evil.
Well, being prudent I dowsed his core motivation, core energy... Didn't feel real loving.
He said his bunch were great admirers of mine and felt love for me. This was real weird and corny somehow, a bunch of bug-eyed, genderless greys wanting to be loving disciples of Cmdr Loohan. Suggesting that their grasp of psychology is such that they thought they could manipulate me by appealing to my craving for devotion. I noticed they had no heart chakras and commented on that, but he said that despite that, they do feel love in a different way that I am not perceiving.
Sounded pretty convincing, but I felt it prudent to run this guy by God's Recyclers to make sure he wasn't cullable. It came to light that he and his race had one prime motive, and that was imperialism for their race. They were not interested in working with other evil beings, unlike most of their ilk. So that whole race of greys apparently got culled.
Then a few minutes later, another type of astral grey attacked me, seemingly pissed. It seemed to hit an invisible shield a few feet away, and I bagged it. Then I got stormed by a bunch more that hit the shield, and I had the Recyclers do up that race. These looked different; almost a bit like human skeletons. More gangly and long-limbed.
Aug. 24, '11: ... um. Someone just wrote me about an antenna farm near Clarendon, TX, and when I went to check it out, there were 9 DUMBs containing a total of about 16K grays. The standard physical short grays. Bases being destroyed now.
Aug. 31, '11: We have found and destroyed several hundred more of their Earth bases.
A couple nights ago I realized that the physical grays do have souls. Well many of them no longer do now; I've been bagging a bunch. The soul of a physical gray is not at all the same thing as the astral short greys of yore.
Sep. 15, '11: I suspect a few of you hunters are getting images of grays as you try to go to sleep at night. At least I am. These are RV glimpses. Try to mark them with energy so the allies can find them.
Last night I got a "movie" of a gray talking. But this gray was small-eyed and in the Zeta Reticuli area. Yet not the same thing as the small-eyed non-physical greys of yore. Antuvozy wiped out all we could find, in numerous nooks and crannies of space-time. Meanwhile their astral bodies rushed me because I was jailing these.
Also I have been finding more of the regular grays regularly.
Oct. 16, '11: Lately trillions of grays from Universe F have been found underground. We blew away a lot of their bases, then I had 'Vozy delete these grays. She had to address them as 5 different species (even tho they all seem identical) but got rid of all these as well as a bunch in Univ. F.
Then I realized, if these grays are genderless but physical beings, there must be clone hatcheries all over the cosmos. Indeed. And each hatchery has a slightly different DNA signature, hence one can delete all the ones from one hatchery as 1 species without phasing the others. So we have been hunting and destroying hatcheries since.
Nov. 11, '11: Lately i have been running into physical, 5' tall, small-eyed Rigelian grays. They are closely associated with The Watchers (see glossary) and involved in the same kind of deeply covert monitoring and mind-manipulations. They look a bit like this, but with smaller eyes. [I have cached someone else's pic here because the link does not work for some people.]
Also, there are some physical 7' tall grays in the Orion area.
March 15, '12: Lately the short Rigelian grays had been getting worse and worse, apparently having mastered the art of quickly mass-producing clone hatcheries. I think it only takes 6 weeks from a new "egg" to functioning gray. And more recently, there has been a major war going on in Rigel. Some new allies, the Alah-Kur, are particularly sharp at finding stuff, and they seem to be nailing all hatcheries as quickly as they start up.
Also, recently we came up with the "3012 Anti-Gray Program" described in OTB 27e, the Feb. 26 entry.
Today Thor'p drew my attention to some good short physical grays. There may only be about 7K of them. They were laying low to avoid the RV attempts by the evil grays. We rescued them so they were able to leave their location. Their new location is secret. But, I just found out, anyone psi-attacking me or Mordok is likely to have these grays attack them.
May 4, '12: The Rigelians are still a bother, and the Orion grays have been up to hijinks as well. And Thor'p discovered another type of gray, called Nor. They mostly hang out in the Triangulum galaxy and Rose galaxy, but are also active underground here. These are pysical, large-eyed, tall grays with rudimentary genitalia but who can no longer reproduce through sexual intercourse. They too have hatcheries which the Alah-kur have been nailing, but i don't think they clone; rather they take sperm and hatch it in "eggs". The males can't ejaculate, so the sperm is removed by medical procedure. They are pretty nasty and have attacked Thor'p, Mordok, and myself. Also they do the same telepathic monitoring/influencing that the short grays do.
May 9, '12: It turns out that many of the Nor were leaving their physical bodies and "running" some types of evil physical ETs on Earth. Their astral bodies were so cloaked that I probably never would have figured this out without Mordok's guidance. I had even jailed a bunch of them that I had chased out of a roomful of NGC4414ers I was blasting, but all I knew is I got some kind of unidentifiable mass of bad energy.
Who were they "running" or at least inside of?
NGC4414 ETs on Earth and on 2 other planets in our galaxy.
The ETs of this same type but from a different galaxy colony, that prevail in Dongjum, NE, and are briefly mentioned in that last linked page.
The evil ET cats used by these ETs, but not the same type of cats in the possession, say, of M32ers.
The evil dogs owned by NGC4414ers, who actually are normal dogs that Nor took over. I do not know where the dogs' natural souls went; I suspect they were killed. Pics of local dogs that used to be Nor-run: 1, 2.
The evil goats, cats, etc. in Nigeria (but not the birds). Pics of goats in Lagos that formerly had Nor "souls": 1, 2 (background may be DORy but the animals no longer are). Also similar animals in other parts of Africa, as well as on other continents.
The ETs I have been blogging about recently that are common in south Florida, e.g. these guys.
We only figured this out this morning, but already we have been jailing Nor astrals, 8 billion+ so far, on the 3 planets. The 5D elephants (Ganesha's tribe) have been helping locate them. Sometimes we find them underground in ETs, thus revealing ET bases for demolition. The 4 gray-slaying turtles are well equipped to jail these things. [Update: No longer; they have been reprogrammed.] Also we trace the astrals back to their physical bodies laying in suspended animation in repositories on other galaxies. So far we have taken out 6 huge repositories.
The 2 other planets where Nor are doing this: In this pic there is a star right under the "sh". One of the planets around that star is in a similar fix as ours. The other such planet is very close to the center of this pic.
A minor point about the small grays from my April blog: Rigel is in one "corner" of Orion, but those grays are administratively a different group from what I call the Orion grays (pic).
May 29, '12: Blog excerpt from May 19:
(5:45pm) I think we are making good progress now vis-a-vis the gray situation. Someone wrote me and insisted i look at some of the work of Franz Erdl, namely Healing Reptilians & Other Dark Beings. (Warning, this is on an NSAtanist site. Ken Adachi has in the past attacked me quite a bit. He even had legions of demons he had created over the decades. He is also the only attacker i have ever noticed masturbating while attacking me. He is a serious occultist.)
It took some insistence before i could detect these snakes. Snake demons as a class are common, and we have eradicated countless species of these over the years. And we eradicated a couple more before we finally could feel the ones Franz talks about. Indeed all evil grays including Nor were stuffed with these snakes he speaks of. Last night i started seriously jailing 1 species which seems to be the more common type he refers to (not the cobras). This has continued today, and i told Mordok about this and he has been helping. These snakes have hatcheries in many galaxies, which the Alah-kur have been finding.
Franz also speaks of cobras and their machines. The Alah-kur are taking out such machines in many galaxies. And we are finding some of these cobras.
The grays which have been de-snaked are very busy yanking them out of other grays. We are jailing and destroying these snakes too. The only gray attacks happening (which attacks have dropped off markedly) are from grays which still have snakes. The proper response is to pull their snakes.
Also there are repts undergound that we have been having trouble with, that have these snakes. I think the majority of the snakes were in grays, though.
The ramifications of healing the grays alone are enormous. For some time, the grays have remained the main apparent force still attacking, implanting, and abducting people. They are also heavily involved in various ways with weather mod and chem-trails. In fact, the grays including Nor were quite possibly the biggest obstacle we still faced. There are also grays underground that have been working with evil people. This gets interesting as grays vacate and disclose.
(6:20) I neglected to mention, these snakes are in 50 universes. Ours is Universe A and they go all the way thru XX.
(7:30pm) Now i am able to hijack the snakes and turn them to attack the Jesuits in Rome.
10 days later, the grays are still de-snaking their comrades, but also have been helping out by attacking evil humans in similar ways to how they used to attack us.
Nov. 2012: Most grays and other life-forms seem to be de-snaked now. We did have problems even recently with grays from another galaxy attacking at least one person. If you get attacked by grays, notify the Iargans. They are very strong at de-snaking them.
There is a particular type of good gray that was brought to my attention by UFOchick. I usually now have 2 of these around, and sometimes more. Also many of my friends have them now. One of my grays is named Bick, and he can be a contact person for other people who want such allies. I am fairly sure these are the astral selves of grays that have physical bodies in Andromeda galaxy and elsewhere. Unlike most grays, these have gender and reproduce sexually. I think they are about 5' tall.
March, 2015: I got reports from 2 different sources of harrassment by some type(s) of greys. Their energy was very cloaked. I was unable to detect them without the help of another psychic. They appear to be headquartered here. They are easy to jail now that we got their energy stirred up. Eventually we will eradicate them, at least from this location. For further details, see March 11 and 12 entries in my blog.